Friends of Cougar News archive 2004
By Greg Thorne
Parking lot break-ins
Wednesday 12/29/04: Upper pool temps are great now. In the 103 range in the top 2 pools. 100 in the next lower pool. Pool temperatures
Thursday 12/9/04: Pools are COLD now! We've had so much rain. The weather forecast is for rain to continue through Wednesday. Based on this forecast, it will take a week without rain before they are hot again. My guess is around Dec 21. I will be traveling for a while, so I won't be able to post updated conditions until Dec 27. Happy Holidays!!
Wednesday 12/8/04: Even the top pools are chilly now because of the recent rain and snow. Not warm enough to enjoy. A few days without rain and they will be warm again.
Monday 12/6/04: It's snowing lightly in Blue River and 34-degrees. 29-degrees on the Santiam Pass and snow covering the road. See the web cam: Santiam Pass web cam. Being in Blue River at the moment, I don't know if it's snowing on those soaking in the pools at Cougar. The warm air above the pools may be melting it before it reaches the ground. It's surely snowing nearby and on the road. According to the weather forecast, it should also snow tonight.
Monday 12/6/04: A fun afternoon at Cougar Sunday. Around 3pm, we had 13 people in pool 2. A great time. Fiona led the group in some entertaining exchanges. Sarah and Monica sang beautifully, and Caleb fed us grapes.
In pool 3 I gave 3 chiwazen sessions, where the temperature was perfect.
Also enjoyed learning about biodiesel from Pamela. She and her husband Ken converted their pickup to burn used vegetable oil. For no money spent on fuel, they drove 2000 miles to LA and back, stopping 2 or 3 times to fill their tank with used cooking oil set out by restaurants for disposal. The biodiesel conversion kit for their diesel engine was just $600, so in a few thousands miles they will break even and then be traveling for no money on fuel.
Sunday 12/5/04: The weather forecast has changed. No snow this weekend at Cougar.
Saturday 12/4/04: Two UO football linemen joined me in pool 3 this afternoon and, of course, I quickly recruited them to help move the boulder that had been taking up considerable space. It had been there since the vandals let it roll into the pool from above. I had thought it would take 4 guys to move it, but I could see these guys were big. Turns out they each weigh 295 pounds. We rolled it all the way up onto the dam. Pretty incredible. The pool is really really nice now. The perfect temperature for chiwazen and ample room. It's great!
The afternoon was a light crowd. Don was very loud in pool 2. His volume was so loud it sounded like someone talking in a normal speaking voice to me in pool 3, even tho the waterfall between the pools was dampening the sound and it was a lower elevation. It suddenly was quiet twice during the afternoon. That was when everyone but him had left pool 2. So we now know a sure fire way to get him to stop talking (shouting) incessantly to people: Leave him alone in the pool.
DeFazio says he'll fight fee extension
Friday 12/3/04: Rain and snow forecast for Saturday and Sunday. With near freezing temps, FS 19 road already slick in some places.
Friday 11/26/04: Rockslide slows traffic on McKenzie Highway 126
Thursday 11/25/04: Happy Thanksgiving !! A couple of extra things to be thankful for: Mt Bachelor has opened for the season. Current conditions: wet (heavy) powder. Scenic Hot Springs in Washington will be reopening, but is still closed. A new owner is making substantial improvements. Already there is one new pool, the trail is much improved, and there is easier vehicle access. There will be a daily fee.
Sunday 11/21/04: Recreational area fees slipped into budget bill. I'm starting a new feature here on the site that will track the crowd at Cougar. It shows how many people were in the pools and what the noise/chatter level was.
Sunday 11/14/04: Lovely day yesterday at Cougar. Parking lot was full when I arrived at 2pm. Pools were mostly full. But it was a wonderful crowd and everyone seemed to be enjoying themselves. Don was passing out apple slices on a tray and wasn't drunk. He even let me give him a brief chiwazen. 7 or 8 nice folks from Willamette U, a visitor from Tokyo and I met someone from Wintergreen Farm. Pool 3 is now 98 and perfect for meditation. The top pool is a hot 105. And the cold water is gushing from the log. Cougar is great!
Saturday 11/13/04: Leonid meteor shower to peak next week. Volunteers have done a great job of repairing the damaged pools. A few large rocks that were knocked down by the vandal(s) remain in pool 3. Thursday afternoon saw a sizeable crowd being Veteran's Day. Alot of families brought their kids who had the day off from school and they had a great time. Friday afternoon was a normal light crowd as most weekdays. Afternoons invariably have more people than mornings both on weekdays and weekends.
Wednesday 11/10/04: A lovely afternoon at Cougar. The pools have heated up in the past week. Some good news and bad news. Din hasn't been around for more than a week. The guy watching the parking lot has recorded the license plate of the break-in suspects. They were there last week and brazenly tried to intimidate him without success. No break-ins have occurred in the 3 weeks since the watch started and it is very unlikely any will. He is there every day. The bad news is that there was significant damage to the dams of pools 1 and 2 that occurred late Monday night. About a dozen large rocks knocked out of place. Pool 2 is 6" lower in level. Pool 1 down 4".
Sunday 10/31/04: Happy Halloween! It's snowing on the Santiam Pass Santiam Pass web cam
Today at Cougar, a guy I'll call Din was there when all afternoon. Loud and drunk as he often is. People left as he got more vulgar in vocabulary and louder in volume. He yacked loudly non-stop for the entire time I was present - 4 hours. As you know, it's difficult to relax with loud, booming utterances. This problem has been going on for months. He fails to temper the volume to normal conversation as a courtesy to others even when I have urged him to do so (when he's drunk). A couple other regulars shared with me their same dismay and told me their techniques for trying to avoid his voice. Now, with only two pools warm enough, options are limited. After 4 hours, I asked him if we could have some quiet time. He rejected that request. Virtually everyone else was gone at that point. I left.
Din not only uses an extremely loud voice when he's drunk, but talks incessantly, and gets drunker through the afternoon, drinking from a juice mix. I probably won't return to Cougar for 3 to 4 months. Hopefully, Din will go home to Pennsylvania. He hangs out at Cougar now about 5 days a week. If he's still there next year, I probably will stay away, and relax elsewhere.
So, if you want any news here, you'll have to email it to me to post, since I won't have any first-hand news to report. I spent a couple hours at home this morning on my PC programming the sunrise and sunset times that appear above to update automatically, so those will continue. Also there won't be any updates to the pool temperatures until if and when I return.
Until Din came along last year things were really improving at Cougar. We have very few people being disrespectful (smoking cigarettes in the pools for example). Most people are complying with leashing their dogs in the pet area and not bringing alcohol and bottles. Law enforcement visits have dropped about 90% since 2002. Volunteers are picking up and carrying out trash. Other than Din, I think there's been no one I've noticed was drunk and acting up there in at least a year. Thank you to all of you conscientious people who are making Cougar such a paradise.
Wednesday 10/27/04: Total lunar eclipse tonight !! From 7:20pm-8:45pm. A guy named Lionel is watching the parking lot from his car, parked parallel to the road. He was there all afternoon yesterday. You might give him a thank you and/or donation as you pass by. He's preventing break-ins. You can soak care free when he's there.
Monday 10/25/04: Daylight Saving Time ends Sunday at 2am. Sunset will be an hour earlier. Pools much cooler from the recent rain.
Wednesday 10/20/04: Very uncrowded afternoon. Few visitors weekdays recently.
Tuesday 10/19/04: 4 cars were broken into yesterday at about 1:30pm.
Wednesday 10/13/04: Component Of Volcanic Gas May Have Played A Significant Role In The Origins Of Life On Earth
Wednesday 10/06/04: The break-ins have abated. We haven't had any break-ins in more than 3 weeks.
Monday 9/27/04: Sunday was the busiest day we've seen at Cougar since July. The parking lot was full by 10am. But it was a beautiful day with a great crowd of nice, friendly people. Two Forest Service Law Enforcement officers were in the parking lot (under-cover style) four hours to try to catch the car-break-in thieves. Wreck Beach threatened.
Sunday 9/26/04: 10 days of sunny 70-80 degree weather forecast.
Wednesday 9/22/04: Happy Equinox !
Monday 9/20/04: The temperature in pool 4 was ideal yesterday for chiwazen 96-97-degrees. We had light rain periodically throughout the day and it was very enjoyable.
I spoke yesterday with Jerri of the Forest Service regarding the break-ins. The law enforcement officer has been busy in another district, and so the FS doesn't seem to e on top of the situation . Jerri collected the info that I had on them. I suggested a security camera be set up that could record the parking lot. She agreed that was the best solution and will see if that can be done.
Sunday 9/19/04: With the rain, very nice range of temps in the pools. Apparently one day had break-ins last week: Tuesday 9/14/04. I have posted a notice on the sign board to alert visitors to not leave wallets and purses in their cars. The thieves are after credit cards and are throwing away the wallets and purses they steal. See the above link for more details.
Saturday 9/11/04: The annual McKenzie River Trail Run is being run today.
Friday 9/10/04: The car break-ins continue. 5 cars were hit in the parking lot yesterday, and some number were hit Wednesday. They even broke both the driver's window and passenger window on at least one car. Trunks were also targeted. They are taking wallets and purses. They are after credit/debit cards. Cell phones are not being taken. I strongly recommend you take all your valuables with you the Springs. You may want to avoid the cost of window repair by rolling down your driver's window. They are striking in broad daylight, when they believe no one else is in the parking lot. Yesterday they struck between 2 and 3pm. Weekdays are probably more likely than weekends for their break-ins, although I know of one occasion when they broke into several cars on a Saturday between 6 and 7:30pm.
Wednesday 9/8/04: Seattle group rallies to allow nudity.
Sunday 8/29/04: Full moon tonight. Sunset is 7:50pm, sunrise 6:30am. Moonrise 8:10pm. Campfire restrictions have been temporarily lifted by the FS due to recent rain. With the McKenzie River as it's source Eugene ranked #1 safest city water in nation.
Saturday 8/28/04: Deer Creek is currently a very pleasant 100.5 degrees. McKenzie River there 51-degrees. There was another car break-in a couple days ago at the Cougar parking lot. We've had a rash of them this summer, all very similar. This is fourth day this summer and 9th car broken into. Window smashed. Purse stolen, and later recovered just north of restricted area sign. Credit cards not recovered. This time we have a description. Guy who broke window had a car. He was driving a blue, possibly Toyota car with tinted windows. Loud engine. He is in his 20s and has short hair. More details on the suspect will be coming.
Friday 8/27/04: Schwarzenegger's Hot Springs Veto Sparks Outrage. Once you bring up the page, click on "Listen."
Schwarzenegger's action may require California hot springs to use chlorine
Thursday 8/26/04: From Aug 31 to Sep 2nd FS 19 road will be closed from roadwork about 1/2 mile north of the Hot Springs. One solution for access is parking at the dam and walking the 4 miles or coming in from the south (about 90 minutes from Oakridge).
Monday 8/23/04: The rain has made soaking at Cougar very very nice. The pools are perfect, ranging from 98.6 to 110. There's a lovely mist in the air and it's a lush beauty as you gaze through it into the forest. Periodically rain of all various sizes comes down. Wonderful !!
Saturday 8/21/04: Rain tomorrow! Sunset tonight 8:03pm. Sunrise 6:22am. Because of the high fire danger currently, smoking in the forest and campfires are prohibited.
Wednesday 8/11/04: I enjoyed meeting Melody and Brennan from Sisters who brought their enchanting 4-week old infant for her first post-natal soak at Cougar. She seemed delighted to stretch her tiny toes and fingers. The Perseid meteor shower peaks tonight.
Wednesday 8/11/04: Deer Creek Hot Springs is currently 102-degrees. The McKenzie River there is 54.5-degrees. And the water at western area of Blue River Lake is 75-degrees. Sunrise at 6:10am and sunset at 8:15pm.
Wednesday 8/4/04: Top pools now over 109-degrees! Details.
Tuesday 8/3/04: I finally have new thermometer, so we'll have current pool temps soon. The Blue River Lake is 77-degrees near Saddleback Dam and great swimming. Cougar pools are hot. Unless you want the hottest, you might want to avoid noon to 4pm when the sun heats the temperature of the pools even more. Most people are enjoying them more in the morning or evening now. Sunset is at 8:30pm. Sunrise at 6:00am.
Basketball legend Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is working in Blue River this summer. Story
Wednesday 7/21/04: 3 cars were broken into today in the parking lot, and 4 yesterday! The thieves used a sledge hammer to break windows and steal credit cards. Yesterday they used the credit cards an hour later in Springfield. I recommend you take your credit cards and valuables with you to the Springs. It was reported that these thieves only stole credit and debit cards. Break-ins are rare at Cougar and this is the worst that I'm aware of in the 9 years I've been here.
Sunday 7/18/04: Saturday at Cougar there were few people there when I arrived around 3pm. Ample space in the parking lot. But it got busier. At around 6pm many groups arrived. Mostly hippies. It was a delightful atmosphere with gentle people soaking and playing guitar. I met Agata from Poland who is visiting Oregon for two months. I also met a large family from Florence here for the Hemp Fest who just opened Theresa's Sunrise Expresso. The Hemp Fest that was to be held in Blue River attracted many to Cougar.
Horsefly season (2-3 weeks) has been less of a problem this year. It started about two weeks ago and now nearly all are gone. Don and other volunteers have done a wonderful job clearing and deeping pool 5. It is nicer than it's ever been.
Cold water is flowing well. Swimming has been excellent since mid June at Blue River Lake where I estimate the water is now up to 78-degrees.
Saturday 7/10/04: It was a nice afternoon and evening at Cougar. There are people coming and going from the Oregon Country Fair, but it was not more crowded that a typical Saturday in the summer. The state police arrived at 9:30pm to ticket for those without passes and for night use. Five cars remained in the parking lot. Tickets are $50 per person for either not having a permit or for night use. The pools are very pleasant temperatures now. I enjoyed meeting and talking with Gretchen, Tom, Angie and Art in pool 3.
McKenzie River District hires
new District Ranger
Mary Allison has taken over as District Ranger at the McKenzie River District of Willamette National Forest. She has been District Resource and Recreation Officer at the Hume Ranger District of the Sequoia National Forest in California.
She has worked a variety of jobs in Sequoia National Forest since 1976, after having graduated from Fresno State College and working seven years with Fresno County in Children’s Protective Services.
Friday 7/2/04: Happy full moon last night. I enjoyed meeting Gary and his wife at Cougar yesterday. Few people in the pools in the afternoon. In fact, for a while, I was the only one! Blue River Lake swimming is very pleasant. Rainbows nude protest.
Monday 6/28/04: Silver lining in muddy Cougar Dam project is more fish in the rivers
Sunday 6/27/04: Pools are warm, even pool 4, a pleasant 98-degrees. Full moon Thursday night. Great swimming now at Blue River Lake. The water is surprisingly warm for early summer.
Wednesday 6/16/04: Sunny and warm all this week. We're approaching the summer solstice. Tonight is the new moon and sunset is at 8:55pm. Pools have warmed and now are perfect. Plenty of cool water flowing from the log for a cold plunge.
Thursday 6/10/04: 2 inches of rain over the past few days has cooled the pools noticeably, but they are still warm enough to enjoy.
Wednesday 6/2/04: Full moon tonight. Sunset at 8:47pm.
Thursday 5/20/04: Pool cleaning until 11am this morning. Deer Creek Hot Springs is warm enough now. It's about 101-degrees. Work on the new trail next to FS19 is finished and it looks great.
Thursday 4/29/04: Work will be occurring on the trail beside FS19 from the parking lot to the trailhead from 5/2 - 5/20/04. More.
Sunday 4/21/04: The Northwest Forest Pass will no longer be honored at Cougar after January 1, 2005. A new Cougar-specific pass is being introduced this year. Any (annual) Northwest Forest Passes you purchase this year can be exchanged at the McKenzie River Ranger Station for a new annual Cougar Pass ($30) so you retain full credit for the unexpired time. The prices remain the same.
Sunday 4/4/04: A great day at Cougar. Don passed out orange, apple slices. Other regulars Brian and Paul S. were there. I met Jenna, Alison and Chris who visited from Willamette U. They also had a 3rd woman with them from WU with short term memory loss. She wanted a massage, then a minute later forgot that I was adept at massage. Heather and her boyfriend. Audra met Piney. Sara arrived late in the afternoon. I also met a Kelly and others. I met Sakura and her girlfriend from the Japan Club at UO who were taking pics for the May edition of their magazine.
Sunday 4/4/04: Beautiful weather! Full moon tonight. Sunset at 7:41pm.
Monday 3/29/04: It's going to the warmest day so far this year today. Sunset at 6:34pm.
I just got off the phone with FS Officer Casey Buchwald. I had reported a man menacing on Friday. It was a man who came to Springs drinking from a wine bottle and angrily asking people if they had any association with the Ku Klux Klan or FBI. If you encounter a man acting in a menacing way please call 911. They want to speak to him. Thank you.
Sunday 3/28/04: Another beautiful sunny warm day at Cougar. I talked buddhism with Paul Stenlzner. Regulars Don, Terry, Kevin and Brian were there. Saw Aeson again and learned more about the Colorados. Met Jed and two girls who were at the Rave at Wow Hall Sat night. Pavell and Sonia from Czech Republic. Former Oregon Governor candidate Richard Alevizos and his partner Sara and their wonderful kids Cosmo and Helios. Also met Adrianne, Pete, Matt. Candy and Steve. I met Megan, Justin and Gabby from UO. Jessimee, Eliza and Erica visiting from Ohio who discovered how incredibly better the Springs feel simply without a bathing suit on. I met Josi and her friends Sarah, Megan, and Rachel from UO. Lindsey and David. And to top it off, Sara made a surprise visit.
I joked towards the end of the day that I had met about 30 people, and I'd see how many names I could remember. Without notes, at 10am the following day as I write this, I glad to say I was able to recall 25 of those people by name that I met for the first time. Thanks to everyone who was at Cougar for making it a wonderful day!
Monday 3/23/04: Beautiful, sunny, warm weather for Spring Break continues. Great day. Returning were Audra, Don, Steve, Emily, JD., Lorraine and Jerri. I met Matt, Cale, Rachel & Andrew, Lydia and her sister, Dawn & Bob, Abby, Jose and their friend from Peru, and John Harper. Bob said the temp was 103 in pool 2, 108 at the mouth of the cave, so the pool are 2-degrees hotter than several days ago.
Jerri Ledgerwood visited from the Forest Service and introduced me to John Harper their new person for Cougar. He's great! He really likes the outdoors and was very impressed with Cougar. I talked with him and gave him the background on Friends of Cougar. I suggested two possible proposals for night use and he was very receptive. One was extending legal hours to 2 hours after sunset and another was occasional Friends of Cougar sponsored nights, such as on the night of the Solstice. I think I will work on getting night use allowed on each full moon. Please send me your comments.
Hoodoo is open every day for skiing and snowboarding now, but goes to a Saturday and Sunday only schedule starting April 3.
Pool cleanings are 8-11am on Thursdays. The next pool cleaning will 3/25. Weekly starting in April. Biweekly October to March.
Don and Audra really liked the idea of Cougar Radio. With the help of a couple in pool #2, we brainstormed some funny but practical ideas. It will happen someday.
Sunday 3/21/04: A wonderful Spring Break day at Cougar. After taking the bus from Eugene, I caught a ride there from Audra. Other returning visitors there were poet Paul, Buddhist Paul, Don with Oranges, Ken & Pamela. I met a Steve, Holly & Leah (friends of Jay), author Mark Mason, Katsu & Tomoko, Jim & Trish. The pools are warmer. I was even in pool #4 for a while. Wonderful !
Friday 3/19/04: Sunny and warm is the forecast for Saturday, the first say of Spring. Spring Equinox at 10:49am. Happy Equinox!
Thursday 3/18/04: NEXT WEEK: Most Oregon schools celebrate a 9 day Spring Break starting tomorrow. Sunset Friday night at 6:21pm. In TWO WEEKS: Eugene's Saturday Market reopens April 3rd. We set clocks ahead one-hour Sunday morning April 4th for Daylight Saving Time during which sunset will be one hour later for the summer.
Monday 3/15/04: Recreation fee rebellion. Deer Creek Hot Spring is 91.5-degrees now - not nearly warm enough. The McKenzie River is 44-degrees.
Sunday 3/14/04: Great day at Cougar yesterday. Warm air temps. 61-degrees and sunny blue sky.
That big rock on the side of the top pool rolled into the top pool (pool 1) this week.
A volunteer improved pool 3 and 4 and they look great, holding more water. Pool 3 is deeper and larger. We had a mild problem with a guy that arrived drunk and I was surprised two guys in their early 20s brought bottles of beer as they entered pool 2. One of them even was holding two full bottles of beer in one hand, recklessly holding them by the necks. I advised them we do not allow bottles in the pools and explained how horrific it is to try to clean broken glass out of the natural bottom pools. One said he understood. When he was growing up he and his friends would throw bottles into their pond to break glass. One day someone cut their foot while in the pond. Go figure.
In the Mount Hood National Forest, the road to Bagby Hot Springs is now clear of snow and fallen trees.
Sunset will be at 6:15 tonight. Sunrise at 6:22am.
Monday 3/8/04: A beautiful weekend at Cougar. Sunshine in the daytime, warm temps, especially Sunday when it hit 55 degrees. There was a full moon Friday night. Pools warmed on Sunday.
Thursday 2/26/04: Light rain today at Cougar. Sunset will be at 5:55pm this coming weekend. The pools are 100-102 degrees.
Monday 2/23/04: A very nice day at Cougar yesterday. Moderate sized crowd. Parking lot was nearly full. Great folks. Don served juicy orange slices. Sara and I met hot springs enthusiasts Dave and Tatiana from Portland. Sara and I took about 250 pictures of each other in pool 3. I'm sure I'll add a few of those to the web site.
Only two guys drinking beer from bottles and smoking cigs. But they were very receptive when I explained that at Cougar the cig smoke moves downward to the next lower pool because of the inversion effect. How sweet it is to breath the clean air! I resisted the urge to ask them to take their bottles away from the rock edge of the pool. They were sober at the time, but one later seemed toasted by the nature and amount of comments he made to me. I was pleased, however, that he was smoking up in the changing area, not in the pools. No dogs present. Almost everyone nude. Peace and tranquility, friendly conversations, massages and no problems. Pools are very warm. 102 in the top pool. Even pool 3 is usable now. Friday was gorgeous with blue sky and uncrowded.
Thursday 2/19/04: The pools may not be warm enough now. We've had 1.5" rain in the past two days. New moon tonight.
Tuesday 2/17/04: Great day yesterday at Cougar. Light, gentle rain. Peaceful crowd. Pool 2 is 100-degrees. Top pools warmer. Sunset tonight will be at 5:41pm. The Cougar web site has been down since Saturday night, but should be up later today.
Wednesday 2/11/04: Sunset at 5:33pm tonight. Next full moon Friday March 5.
Monday 2/9/04: Pools are warm again. The top pools have been warm since a week ago Sunday.
Wednesday 1/28/04: The pools are cold today. We had 2 inches of rain over the past two days. We'll need about 2 days without rain for them to warm up above body temperature, but rain is forecast for the remainder of the week.
Monday 1/26/04: We enjoyed a very nice weekend at Cougar. The road is clear to bare pavement. Upper pool temps are just above body temp. About 99-100 degrees in the top two pools. Sunset 5:11pm. Next full moon is Feb 5.
Friday 1/23/04: It may snow Saturday. Today we're just getting rain. 38-degrees at midday at Cougar. The road to the Springs is currently open and conditions are fine for cars.
Tuesday 1/13/04: The road from the dam to Cougar is now one lane. Two-way traffic is a problem unless you have four-wheel drive. Given the forecast for rain the rest of the week, by the start of the holiday weekend, the road should be clear.
Sunday 1/11/04: It's a 8.7 miles round-trip hike from the dam if you don't have 4-wheel drive. Cross country skiing would be an alternative. The 4 foot high snow wall that had been just above the dam for three days was removed yesterday afternoon. Yesterday the main pool was 99-degrees. The second pool 97.5 deg. You will need 4-wheel drive to reach the Springs today, unless you hike or hitch-hike from the dam.
Saturday 1/3/04: It snowed 18 inches in the past few days at Cougar. It's a beautiful hike from the dam. 4.1 miles to the trailhead. The road is plowed to the dam. After the dam it is passable with high clearance vehicles with four-wheel drive or chains. There is, however, only one track so that two-way traffic may have a problem getting stuck. I added a new photo gallery of pictures I took yesterday hiking in the snow from the dam to Cougar, including a few shots at the Hot Springs.
Thursday 1/1/04: Snow today. Four-wheel drive or chains highly recommended.
Happy New Year!!
Air temperatures are generally 3.5-degrees cooler for each 1000 feet in elevation. Cougar is at 1850'. Eugene is 420'. Thus it will generally be 5-degrees cooler at Cougar from the elevation and when you include the effect of buildings in Eugene, Cougar is normally 7-degrees cooler.